[6bone] FAQ about pTLA request NDSOFTWARE - review closes 23 October 2002

[John Fraizer]

On 20 Oct 2002, Nicolas DEFFAYET wrote:

> Here a FAQ, no more reply on this list about "pTLA request NDSOFTWARE -
> review closes 23 October 2002".
> 
> NDSoftware pTLA request is fully compliant with RFC2772.
> http://mailman.isi.edu/pipermail/6bone/2002-October/006364.html
> 
> Don't try to find a bug, there is no bugs.
> If you are jealous, search another victim.
> 

Sorry Nicolas.  It doesn't work that way.  You don't get to say "Don't
discuss my application any more." 

I don't know about "bugs" in your application but, there are several
compliance issues, which I have already pointed out in previous emails.

As for being jealous, you have got to be smoking crack if you think that
I'm jealous.  We are _NOT_ trying to make you a victim but rather prevent
the participants in the DFZ from becoming a victim of yours.


> 
> Please respect the Bob Fink's email:
> 
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------->
> 
> 6bone Folk,
> 
> Please keep the discussion from getting personal, or becoming defamatory
> or 
> using swear words.
> 
> Many folks watch how we carry out our 6bone business; it is important
> that 
> we remain open, objective and willing to hear all sides.
> 
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Bob
> 


Nicolas,  Bob is a big boy.  I'm sure that if he feels that someone is not
respecting his wishes and following the guidance he provides to the list,
he will deal with it himself.  He does not need for you to play "Master at
Arms" from France.


> We develop an ISP activity for offer to our customers a complete
> solution (if a customer order the creation of a software for its
> customers management, we want offer additional services like the
> creation of the website linked with the software of customers
> management, the hosting of this website,...)

Nicolas, this flies in the face of what you posted previously.

In a previous email, listed at
http://mailman.isi.edu/pipermail/6bone/2002-October/006348.html you write:


"=> How get an ASN for our new IPv6 network ?
(we don't want do IPv4 network)"

Which one is it Nicolas?  Do you want to offer a complete solution, or do
you want to do v6 only with no v4?


> ---
> 
> Why NDSoftware don't have a website ?
> 
> For the moment, we don't need a website for find new customers and do
> our business. Do marketing stuff is not a priority for us, because we
> get new customers with our actual customers.

OK.  If you insist that you actually have customers, you have
customers.  Since you use word-of-mouth as your sole marketing technique,
I'm sure that you have at least ONE customer who has given you permission
to use them as a reference.  Who would they be?

> The NDSoftware website is under developpement since many mounths. Our
> website will be not a vulgar website with 20 static pages about our
> activites. We will manage our client with it, automatize all
> administrative tasks (invoice for exemple),... Our aim is develop more
> services without more staff.

OK.  So this is a matter of the cobblers children going barefoot
huh?  Your "company," as one of it's commercial, revenue generating
activities, to quote you, "creation of the website."  Your customers
simply take your word for you that you can complete a project though and
none of them express any concern or pay any attention to the fact that
"since many months" your own ?corporate? website is defunct.

I was born at night Nicolas but, it wasn't LAST NIGHT.


> ---
> 
> Does NDSoftware plan do commercial activities on 6bone ?
> 
> No, of course !
> 
> All our IPv6 services are free in production quality but without any
> guarantee.
> We will do commercial activities only with a sTLA from the RIPE.


OK.  And how do you suppose that you're going to qualify for an sTLA?

> 
> Is Nicolas DEFFAYET is a kid without brain who destroy 6bone ?
> 
> I'm Nicolas DEFFAYET, i have 4 years, i got every day to school, and i
> play with my FisherPrice routers and i destroy all 6bone.
> 

I hope you don't mind but, I'm going to use that in my signature line from
now on.  It's so funny!  


> ---
> 
> Why NDSoftware collecting tunnels and BGP sessions ?
> 
> It's for do a lot of tests.
> 

OK.  You've got our attention.  I'm always interested in gadgets, tests,
new innovations.  What kind of tests are you performing?  Have you
documented any of them?  Have you or do you plan to publish your results
to the public?

> ---
> 
> Does NDSoftware have a bad routing ?
> 
> No, we use MED.
> 
> Our MED for tunnels:
> 
> 500: - 10 ms
> 510: 10 - 25 ms
> 520: 25 - 50 ms
> 530: 50 - 100 ms
> 540: + 100 ms
> 

Nicolas,

The use of Multi Exit Discriminator does not in and of itself all of the
sudden mean your routing != BAD or sub-optimal.

I'm not saying that your routing IS sub-optimal but, I will certainly say
that I believe you have gone WAY overboard with the number of _UPSTREAM_
tunnels you have.  If you had 101 downstream peers, we'd all be jumping
for joy at your request for a pTLA.


> A lot of pTLA and sTLA don't use MED, we use MED for have a good
> quality.
> 
> We use too "bgp always-compare-med" of course.
> 

The use or lack of use of the MED attribute does NOT in and of itself
equal good routing.

> ---
> 
> NDSoftware routers have many BGP peer down, why ?
> 
> We do a migration (for the moment only parcr2.fr.ndsoftwarenet.net and
> route-server.ndsoftwarenet.net), we change AS65526 to AS25358.
> 

You know Nicolas, the last time I would start doing service effecting
maintenance is right before I knew someone was going to start looking at
our network under a magnifying glass.  There are graceful ways to achieve
exactly what you are trying to achieve.  You simply have opted not to do
so.


> ---
> 
> Why NDSoftware need a pTLA ?
> 
> A lot of peers filter our /32 because it's not a pTLA. 
> We want a pTLA for can announce without any problems our network, don't
> break the IPv6 aggregation and be independant of a upstream (we don't
> want be down because our upstream is down).

I understand that you _WANT_ a pTLA.

> 
> All ISP/company/project who provide IPs to another ISP/company/project
> and have many upstream MUST have a pTLA/sTLA.

Wow.  That is a pretty broad statement and does not hold true in
practice. 


> 
> In http://www.6bone.net/6bone_pTLA_list.html, a lot of pTLA aren't used
> or are used only for a /48 and/or have only one upstream.
> 
> An exemple: MOTOROLA-LABS, have only one upstream. Do you think that
> they need a pTLA ? If their upstream is down, this pTLA is not anymore
> announced. MOTOROLA-LABS don't provide IPs and a /48 is enough for their
> activity...

As has already been stated, Motorola-Labs has many, many, MANY
"internal" customers.  With several THOUSAND locations, world-wide, I am
quite certain that once their v6 network is fully deployed, they will have
made appropriate use of their pTLA.

There is no requirement that pTLAs have more than one connection into the
backbone.  And just so you know, at the pTLA/sTLA - pTLA/sTLA peering
level, we peer in the horizontal plane, not the vertical plane.


> 
> NDSoftware provide IPs to another ISP/company/project and have many
> upstream...
> 

OK.  And this is appropriate justification for a pTLA?

> Does NDSoftware plan to be LIR at the RIPE ?
> 
> Yes, it's planned.
> We will be LIR when our ISP activity will be stable.
> 

Again, I reference your previous email at 
http://mailman.isi.edu/pipermail/6bone/2002-October/006348.html

"=> How get an ASN for our new IPv6 network ?
(we don't want do IPv4 network)"

The lack of a v4 network is going to put a serious hurt on any plans you
have to become an LIR or for that matter, an ISP by many definitions.

> ---
> 
> Why NDSoftware will close peering with private ASN ?
> 
> We have 101 BGP4+ peers, our current routers are full (zebra is very
> unstable if we add new peer) and we want get new peer with other
> pTLA/sTLA that we can't get with our old private ASN.
> 
> We have choose to delete all peers with private ASN for free BGP session
> on our routers for this new peers.

Nicolas, didn't we already point out that you don't have 101 BGP4+
sessions?  You _had_ 93 sessions when we counted them this
morning.  Believe me.  The number is high enough with artificial inflation
on your part.

Now that we have that said, I submit again, that if you are going to be a
viable pTLA, you'll build another router.  Good grief!  You can build a
KICK-BUTT tunnel endpoint router for $200USD!  If you're already too full
to maintain your current peering obligations while bringing on requisite
lateral peers, and you won't build a new router to accomodate additional
peers, just how is it that you're going to make use of your pTLA?   

> 
> We don't delete peers with private ASN because "private ASN sucks", we
> keep peering with important private ASN like NextGenCollective or
> IPNG-UK (this 2 projects projet provide a lot of tunnels to users). I
> understand their status, it's why i keep peering with them.
> 
> We will try to find a solution before the 23th October for keep peer
> with all private ASN.
> 

Simple solution.  If your router is overloaded, for whatever reason, you
build another one.  That's how you build a _network_ of routers.  Do you
see a cause and effect relationship here?

> 
> I have an anoter question...
> 
> Ask to nicolas.deffayet@ndsoftware.net
> with a CC to fink@es.net 
> 

If I had to venture a guess, I would say that Bob would rather have any
discussions on the List and as such, until instructed otherwise by Bob, I
will continue to post my questions to the list.


---
John Fraizer
EnterZone, Inc


"I'm Nicolas DEFFAYET, i have 4 years, i got every day to school, and i
play with my FisherPrice routers and i destroy all 6bone." - Nicolas
DEFAYET, 20 October 2002.