Newbie starting point :) WAS: WAS... Re: pTLA request for RMNET - review closes 23 April 2002

[Jeroen Massar]

Merlin [mailto:robert@quantum-radio.net.au] wrote:

See the end for the usefull lessranting part ;)

<RANT>

> On the surface - again - this looks fine. Look closer and you 
> will see that once again in the case of the Linux HOWTO,
> it's one persons setup diagram, for IPv6 and a lot of links 
> to stuff that everyone already knows about, and even for a
> Linux person it has to be pretty difficult to follow.
> and Linux users are used to having complex options. Or should I
> say standards. "Standards are wonderful things. There are so 
> many to choose from"... :-)
> And the more you read the onlline docs - because of their 
> wide ranging sources - the more confusing it all becomes.
That all depends on how big a linux user one is.
Many 'linux users' don't know how to install Linux From Scratch
simply because they are spoiled with Packagemanagement systems.
Or when a problem pops up they don't even know that there is
a thing called google, manual and docs dir where the problems are
explained....

If you want it easy use the Windows systems and click&play.
Nobody said it was easy, though it actually IS easy :)

> However, this only supports what I said earlier. There are no 
> definative documents for 6to4 working, and precious few
> for IPv6 alone.
There are *LOADS* of documents, check http://hs247.com

> Lots and Lots of individual setups granted. For individual 
> OSs like Linux, FreeBSD and so on. But precious little of a
> broader nature such as is produced in the O.Reily books for example.
www.amazon.com and numberous others sport many IPv6 related books
also the HOWTO supplied by Peter Bieringer should be more then
sufficient.

> I would have thought that 6bone ORG would have a repository 
> of definitive work, being the initiatiors of the whole deal
> ( are they?) I may be wrong.
Google and other search engines are always up to date on this matter :)

<SNIP>
> But of course there is still the good old two tier structure 
> that we have always had. The Wizards who thought up the
> whole thing, and don't even recognize the existence of lesser 
> mortals let alone write something they can understand, and
> us - the lesser mortals.
"Wizards" prefer RFC's and digging around in the source code.

> Because of the lack of centrality to the rollout, getting 
> simple answers to seemingly simple problems becomes a major
> exercise, and I'm sure there are thousands, nay millions 
> even, who have taken one look, tried it and said ... holy 6bone
> batman, what is this masked Ninja Turtle.
> Actually, thinking about it, a Turtle is a good symbol for 
> IPv6 so far. It either pulls it's head in so you can't see
> it, or it's won't work because it's on it's back with it's 
> legs in the air.
That turtle you are mentioning is the KAME (which is japanese for turtle
;)
Also if one isn't capable of using google I wonder if one should
be bothering even thinking about trying out new things....

> A case in point. I'm not looking for any new answers here by 
> the way - I have already received 32, all different. Just
> givng an example.
> 
> I set up a router on a FreeBSD box using the 6to4 setups. 
> Prefix 2002 and all that. It appeared to work fine. Talkd to
> anything about the place with ping6 and so on. That took the 
> best part of three weeks on and off to master. I wasn't on
> it all the time of course, I do have a living to make.
> OK, got that working. I read in some docs...
> To get a client on the same network working, and talking to 
> the router, and other hosts on the network, 'just set IPv6
> Enable="YES"'
> Yea - right.
> The only way it talks to the router, or the router to it, is 
> through the fe80+MAC address of the ethernet card
> interface.
> Asking the questions:
Well DUH ... you need to enable IPv6 forwarding and advertise
a /64 out of your 6to4 /48 on your local network.
(See the IPv6 HOWTO :)
man radvd (Linux)
man rtadvd (*BSD)

<SNIP>

> Ok, like I said. I do not want answers to the above emailed 
> to me. My point is that there should be answers somewhere on
> the site of whoever it was that IMPLEMENTED the 2002 prefix 
> idea in the first place perhaps. The same for IPv6 and any
> other of the things to do with IPv6.
READ THE RFC.
And it's quite common sense to do it this way.

> Even on 6bone, there is no "dictionary". Here's a good example.
There is it's called google and www.faqs.org containing the RFC's.

> 2002:        The prefix used by the 6to4 set of connection 
> methods. Use this if you are setting up your own config based
> 6to4 setup and already have your own IPv4 network, or static address.
6to4 is a transition method, not a connection method.

> 3ffe:           (I think) The prefix used if you connect via 
> a 6to4 tunnel broker, such as freenet6.
3ffe:/16 is the 6bone delegation (see www.6bone.org)

> Tunnel Broker  A service provider who will dynamically 
> allocate you an address in the above space.  See [here] to
> configure other hosts on your netwrok with matching 
> addresses, so you can have your whole netwrok of IPv4 machines also
> using the IPv6 or the IPv4 network at will.
Most "Tunnel brokers" supply either/and/or:
- native IPv6
- 6to4
- 6over4
- shipworm

And most of them will not do this "dynamically".
Also most of these TB's have detailed instructions on how things work:
http://www.freenet6.net/howtsp.shtml
http://www.ipng.nl/index.php3?page=setup.html
http://www.xs26.net/text.bat?page=help

HE.net says:
8<--------
To use this free service you must have IPv6 support on your host or
router. If you don't have IPv6 support yet please read more about IPv6
at a site like hs247.com first.
--------->8
And they also list Peter Bieringer's HOWTO :)

> On your Local Machine
> ::1                                                 Your localhost
> fe80::%rl0/64                                 Your ethernet 
<SNIP>
> ff02::%tun0/32
Read the RFC's and/or the HOWTO it's all there.

> Dictionary.
> Part Two:
<SNIP>
See Peter's HOWTO

> and put in the most obvious place. The 6bone.org site. and 
> kept updated.
Google is up to date, indexing everything around this world.

Also http://hs247.com as mentioned before
or what about directory.[google|yahoo|netscape|...] aka dmoz.org:
http://dmoz.org/Computers/Internet/Protocols/IP/IPng/

Yes it's all there.

The fact that some people are too lazy to even look around on the
internet
does exactly answer all your "problems".
Some people come asking "I have a bachelor this, doctorate in this,
university student at that but how do I configure IPv6"
without even looking around.

Google on "IPv6" for a moment:
http://www.google.com/search?sourceid=navclient&querytime=y64xwB&q=IPv6
<--- this will show you
the results which are:

http://directory.google.com/Top/Computers/Internet/Protocols/IP/IPng/?tc
=1 <-- the dmoz.org directory.
http://ww.ipv6.org/ <-- I wonder what that is
http://www.ipv6forum.com/ <--- commercial forum for the industry
http://playground.sun.com/pub/ipng/html/ipng-main.html  <-- IETF IPng
working group (who "invented" IPv6)
http://www.bieringer.de/linux/IPv6/ <--- YES Peter's HOWTO
http://www.kame.net <-- KAME :)
http://www.6bone.net/ <-- 6bone (which is only a part of the IPv6
capable internet, might I add)
http://www.linux-ipv6.org/ <-- Ipv6 on linux
http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/ipv6/ <-- Ipv6 on solaris
http://www.cisco.com/warp/public/732/Tech/ipv6/ <-- IPv6 on cisco
http://research.microsoft.com/msripv6/ <-- IPv6 on Windows

and many many many many many many <repeat> more....
</RANT>

And if you really have an unanswered question don't hesitate to ask the
list ofcourse ;)
When you first learned math/english/<other lingo>/geography/biology etc
you also had to read a lot.
With IPv6 it isn't much different, the only difference I can tell is
that it's not given
when you grow up and one isn't kept by the hand learning it.
Though ofcourse there are training programs, check http://hs247.com
(AGAIN :) at the
left for "IPv6 training" I wonder what that does...

Greets,
 Jeroen

PS: When I tried to figure it all (1998 or so), there where no howto's
but some
searchengine told me how to do it even then (along with the kernel and
tools sources in hand :)