[6bone] report of 6bone planning BOF

[Jeroen Massar]

Jeff Simmons [mailto:jsimmons@goblin.punk.net] wrote:

> Pardon a lurker who's just here to learn about IPv6 from 
> piping up, but ...
> 
> On Wednesday 19 March 2003 01:41 pm, Jeroen Massar wrote:
> 
> > There is nothing one can do against bad admins except hitting them
> > quite hard with a very big cluestick. It's the same for the fact
> > that you will still see Code Red and other worms flying around.
> > Some people just don't do their job correctly or good.
> 
> You know, every time there's a problem on the internet, 
> worms, virii, open mail relays, etc., someone trots out
> this tired old argument.  Bad admin. Hit with cluestick.
> 
> Reality, down in the trenches, is a little different. Most 
> admins would LOVE to clean up their networks and servers,
> but can't.  They're in firefighting mode from the minute
> they come into work, and priorities are assigned not with
> the health of the internet in mind, but with a concern for
> which of the higher-ups in the organization is the most
> pissed off at the moment.  Or how much money it will make.

Ofcourse that is a problem in some organisations. But I think
that then more has to do with the fact that you have more
work on your hands than you can handle than the fact that you
won't want to fix it.

If the admin really loved his network he would clean it up
starting from scratch if needed.

> Fix that open relay?  And buy a new copy of the OS, which we 
> stole in the first place?

Never let the BSA (or similar authorities) hear that ;)
Someone remember what fines there where for such cases?
What did cost so much many again? Let alone the time etc.

>  How much will that save us?
> 
> Patch the DB server?  Sorry, we promised that customer 99.999% uptime.

Then firewall that DB server away. What costs more?
An abuse department that needs to address complaints from
all over the world or an 

> Fix that routing table?  Why, how's it affect our day to day 
> operations?

It will generate more money as your paying clients will have
a more stable network.
 
> You want horror stories, contact me.  I've got a LOT of them.

Campfires are great places to hear those.

> I'm not here to jump in someone's face, or even to defend my chosen 
> profession.  But you guys have a chance to influence the next 
> generation of internet protocols, and this kind of stuff
> isn't ever going to get fixed unless there are economic
> incentives to do so. 
>
> The kind that will make management sit up and take notice.
> Not admins, management.   They're the ones 
> that call the shots on what gets fixed and what doesn't.

IMHO management that can actually take decissions on how
an admin has to divide his/her workload could apparently
help out that admin in aiding his job better.
As you said, they only look at the money. If they look
at the money they should also realize that faults cost money.
And avoiding certain faults, dos's from your network because
it suddenly is swamped with drones caused by some virus
which was announced on security and virii lists, does save
one from more work: the cleanup.

> What we need is a way to hit MANAGEMENT with that cluestick.  
> And if it's built in at the protocol level, so much the better.
> Because if you think that it's just a problem of bad or lazy
> admins, you're going to be trotting that argument out again
> and again and again for many years to come.

Well apparently the admin can't convince his management
why it is important to update stuff. Apparently also that
management doesn't care when they get a bad reputation which
effectively will cost them money. Word of mouth (email/fora)
is probably the worst form of advertisement a company can have.

Then again management is probably too uptight with getting
money on their own banks to afford an extra admin.

Management.. uptight, let's leave it with that ;)
But it does boil down to yet the primary thing in
this world: money.
No money for new hardware/upgrades -> no IPv6.

So maybe we should first invent some new quick
money to get it all rolling ? :)
You should convince your management types that
they need IPv6 as it provides more to the enduser
Also that when they do it now that they are ahead
of the competition and don't have to worry for it
when that competition already has it and is getting
the customers that you actually wanted.

There are always a couple of ways to look at a story ;)

Greets,
 Jeroen